Comments on SEPTA fail: Some Reflections on the 2009 Strike

Of course Regional Rail workers have a different u...

2009-11-16T20:46:29.865-05:00

Of course Regional Rail workers have a different union. Right now, that works pretty well for the mainline thirteen Directors and their constituents who can thus just take the city's money without being inconvenienced by the city's "overweight " people.
What is sad is to see city people turning against city drivers.

@ Anonymous 11.13.09 9.46p The Regional Rail worke...

2009-11-15T00:44:49.056-05:00

@ Anonymous 11.13.09 9.46p
The Regional Rail workers are a different union than buses/trolley/subway TWU Local 234.

SEPTA is controlled by a Board of Directors which has 15 seats; 2 are from Philly.

I am under the impression that SEPTA is managed by...

2009-11-13T21:46:00.744-05:00

I am under the impression that SEPTA is managed by the people on the mainline, for the people on the mainline ... and the Paoli trains are still running. Whatever money comes to SEPTA doesn't seem to go into the city transit as much as into suburban lines. But it's not just Paoli. There used to be a high bridge over Lincoln Drive just before it gets into Chestnut Hill that needed to be replaced. Amazingly, the money was found almost immediately ... and the Chestnut Hill West trains are still running.

i don't care to discuss the specificities of t...

2009-11-11T02:04:20.327-05:00

i don't care to discuss the specificities of the difference between the two, as this is a discussion about the workers of SEPTA fighting for what THEY want, but as you said, these are indexes based on volatility in the market. my point exactly. so you move them into 'safer' stocks as you get older, what's to say that they will continue to yield in the future? whoops, honey, there went the mortgage!
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2009/05/who-shredded-our-safety-net
http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,1929119,00.html
these about sum it up

> 401(k)'s and IRA's have changing retu...

2009-11-10T11:09:31.083-05:00

> 401(k)'s and IRA's have changing returns, that are dependent on the illusion that the
> market will always yield higher funds for supposedly safe investments. since the economic
> crash, we have a full class of people with nothing to depend on in their old age except
> for a crumbling social security system. yippee!

Uh, no. That's not how IRAs and 401(k)s work at all. I believe you are thinking of mutual funds and ETFs based on stock indexes.

An IRA (Roth or otherwise) or a 401(k) can be invested in whatever you want to invest it in. Stocks, bonds, mutual funds, whatever. The preferred strategy is to invest in stock indexes when you are younger, as they have higher rates of return but also higher volatility. Then, as you approach retirement, to start moving some of that money into more stable investments such as bonds.

Incidentally, there already exist retirement funds which will do this automatically for you as you approach retirement age. Vanguard has a whole series of Target Retirement Funds.

pensions are only a thing of the past because empl...

2009-11-09T14:51:32.592-05:00

pensions are only a thing of the past because employers began to see that they really had no interest in taking care of employees after long years of service. isn't is better that they just go and die instead?

401(k)'s and IRA's have changing returns, that are dependent on the illusion that the market will always yield higher funds for supposedly safe investments. since the economic crash, we have a full class of people with nothing to depend on in their old age except for a crumbling social security system. yippee!

Sorry, but no. Pensions are a thing of the past. ...

2009-11-09T10:02:21.834-05:00

Sorry, but no. Pensions are a thing of the past. Members of TWU 234 can start investing in Roth IRAs (and maybe a matched 401(k)) like the rest of us.

Times have changed, and TWU 234 needs to change with them, or they're just going to turn into the Philly version of the MPAA and RIAA, trying to exist on an outdated business model.

While I agree with you, Albert, on the fact that w...

2009-11-07T09:43:59.514-05:00

While I agree with you, Albert, on the fact that workers need to be protected -maybe via unions, although i don't think they have a place any more, not the style of bullying union Philadelphia has-, I do not agree on them being hard workers.

I personally would not say a thing if I felt that they deserved this raise, i wouldn't even think about it if we weren't for this recession.

So they were working without a contract...were they in ANY danger of losing their paycheck at all? I know a few people that live day to day with a warning of "you'll be working for free x days a month" or "you might not have a job next week". They never had that risk.

In the past year I've seen my fair share of friends and family; all of them smart, hardworking and already underpaid (this last one mostly women as it is unfortunately still the norm) lose even more. They are getting large pay cuts and losing their jobs.

Why do I mention this? I mention it because, from my experience, only a few of those SEPTA bus and trolley drivers (maybe less than 5%) would deserve any kind of raise or benefits.

I don't think that I should be paying (through taxes, higher fares, etc) for that 95% that are rude, put people's lives in danger and still expect to be treated like kings and queens that deserve everything they ask for. Times are hard. We all work hard in order to get them; why not them?

Now for a few examples of the stellar service that we're rewarding:

I've seen them snap a nasty "I can't talk to you right now" at passengers that ask them about a bus route to take next; but yet, they chat for as much as they can with buddies that sit in the reserved seats while senior citizens have to walk to the back seats.

I've seen them ran countless stop signs and red lights...that behavior is so common that it happens at least 5 times on my commute to work. even more during rush hour while I walk home. They've caused deaths by their careless driving. Do you remember the May incident? one of the drivers killed a guy that was in a wheelchair in Girard. He was on a wheelchair from another previous accident with a SEPTA bus. There are two other incidents that are more recent (but can't remember the specifics) and this is just in the past few years.
I myself was almost hit by one such left-turning SEPTA driver around Drexel. I was crossing, he started going before the light turned green. I was walking as fast as I could, he honked and nearly hit me…I was lucky, but once again, how many haven't?

Why should, the careless SEPTA drivers, benefit from the few of them that actually do their work? it is irresponsible to continue to reward such a behavior with more benefits...

I read on the metro that the drivers complain about not getting respect...could it be that most of the time they actually deserve it? I have witnessed times in which the driver will go past a a senior citizen at a stop, only to stop a few meters away (because traffic couldn't let them go further). I even tweeted about the incident where the driver made the senior citizen walk, didn't lower the bus….plus told the lady to hurry up.

BTW if this was about pensions (not that I agree they deserve pensions either), how about we drop every single benefit and give them the equivalent in pensions. would they still take it? no, they want the whole thing.

I wish i could be with TWU 234, but I can't defend those that are rude and putting my life in danger. Make TWU 234 change the behavior of most of their workers, and perhaps I will change my mind.

misterabnormal: it's quite easy to dismiss wha...

2009-11-06T23:21:26.884-05:00

misterabnormal:
it's quite easy to dismiss what it is you're saying, as it sounds like you're sorely misinformed.
you don't want public transit to strike? then get a job doing public transit and have your voice heard. until you do the work, you have no right to tell them what they should and shouldn't do. it sounds more like they have you by the cajones and you're angry about it, because in your mind they should be seen and not heard, huh?
as to whether pensions 'killed' the industries you cite, where is the statistical analysis? i understand that this isn't quite the space in which to go through a book length, or actually what depends on a larger analysis, but the jury is still out on the facts. in the UAW's case in particular, decreased consumption of Chrysler, Pontiac, and GM vehicles led to smaller revenues. the auto industries were light years ahead of you or i in crushing unions--i.e. the decentralization push that was most highlighted by ford. ford, however, has not been successful in crushing their unions, and they also aren't failing. if ford's not failing, and the workers in their factories are UAW members, your theory is pretty much negated.
in other industries, such as coal, the companies simply used up the land and left. steel? they decided they didn't want to pay workers what they were worth. you have no one to blame in this situation but the american government and our conception of the market and 'economic freedom' to relocate shop when workers ask for more than what employers think they should pay. wouldn't it be great if workers just worked for free and didn't need to eat? shipping? actually, shipping is quite strong in the US. The ILWU are proud Americans, proud workers, and proud union members. the name escapes me as to the union on the east coast however.
if unions weren't about safety, then why did a septa employee die two nights ago while at work? workers take care of their pensions by fighting for it as a union.
you sound a lot like the bosses i came up against as a labor organizer: 'unions served their purpose, but have no use anymore.' actually, it's pretty easy for employers to skirt labor law, still, and guess what? they do it often.
in solidarity with TWU 234,
justin

I am with Brandon and Joanna on this one... while ...

2009-11-06T18:35:06.934-05:00

I am with Brandon and Joanna on this one... while I respect your opinion I think SEPTA management should be fired here I also think this union needs to be busted. I agree with unions place in our society and think we need them even more than most can know today but this union is out of touch and is as corrupt as UAW and is a political patronage machine. Unions were not supposed to be about pensions and making a "middle class income", that is propaganda. Unions originally were about not having to work in conditions which were deadly to workers, were about workers making enough money to not be an indentured servant', to not have children working in factories 60 hours a week, were about workers rights and safety. Unions, like most people today have become greedy, insular and fraudulent. Pensions? Get real... who the hell has those anymore... they are as outmoded as the token machines in the SEPTA concourses. They are lucky to EVEN have a pension. It is THEIR responsibility to take some of their income and INVEST it on their own. There are no more guarantee's in life anymore... there never really were and lets face it these are not educated government employee's working @ the treasury here. (pensions killed many a business in this country; the railroads, the steel industry, the auto industry, shipping, heavy equipment manufacturing, textiles, bus and heavy rail engine and car manufacturing, bicycle companies, and on and on and on) Pensions are nice but problematic... but that's another story. And I for one do not believe that pensions are the sole issue here, a LOT of people do not buy that line.

Workforces that serve "the greater public good" such as police, fire, trash and yes public transit (and probably streets dept. workers, etc) should NOT be allowed to strike. Period. You don't agree, then work somewhere else... in the meantime we need 3rd party arbitration. I have heard that the TWU has wanted this and SEPTA rejected it, and I have heard the opposite so I do not know what is the truth to this matter. Nonetheless when you look at how often this city has to deal with public transportation strikes you know something is not right.

On the other side of the coin SEPTA management is even worse than the TWU imo. It's structure is a holdover from pre PTC days and is just as problematic as PTC was. Some would say SEPTA is a mafia, and that is not far from the truth probably. We the public are expected to just deal with these two sides as they fight it out while BOTH sides could care less about the riding public and in fact BOTH sides hold us in contempt, it's just we deal with the union employee's on a day to day basis. SEPTA is a mess and is also a patronage machine designed to extract money from the public, and is chronically underfunded by the state and the federal governments. Sad.

Insofar as the media is concerned... well what do you expect really? American mass media is a pale shadow of it's former self and are now crass, disposable 'infotainment' dispensers beholden to their corporate owners bottom lines. Again, we the public are secondary here.

Brandon - sorry, I thought you might be someone el...

2009-11-06T18:24:47.409-05:00

Brandon - sorry, I thought you might be someone else, I didn't mean it as a slight to you.

Matt, thanks for that. A good read. The 90% figure...

2009-11-06T18:22:30.603-05:00

Matt, thanks for that. A good read. The 90% figure wasn't my figure, but Willie Brown's.

So let's check these Inky pension figures:
1995: TWU 53% MGT 88% [TWU gets 60% of MGT]
2000: TWU 69% MGT 86% [TWU gets 84% of MGT]
2005: TWU 61% MGT 72% [TWU gets 81% of MGT]

Brown's figures are fudged then. But there's a good deal of disparity still.

Albert, I'm about 99% positive you don't k...

2009-11-06T18:17:46.321-05:00

Albert,
I'm about 99% positive you don't know me.

You definitely got it right when you said unions have devolved into a shadow of what they were. Again I agree with the idea of unions, the act of standing up for workers, the idea of protecting jobs, etc. But I always end up laughing to myself when I hear people proclaiming unions are actually doing any of this or that they’re “defending the last of a dying breed”, blah blah blah. I want to shake my head yes and agree with them, I truly and honestly do. It’s just reality is so very, very far from the idea. Unions are now, and have been for quite some time, part of the problem in this country. They've helped create our 'lazy American' stereotype. They've helped stifle innovation here by creating a culture where just showing up to your job everyday is enough to succeed. Part of me hates corporate entities for outsourcing manufacturing, while a small part of me completely understands why they would.

As for pensions, to be blunt, I don't think transit workers deserve them. No offense to anyone but I just don't think many people at all deserve them. In my eyes the only people in this country that deserve pensions are Firefighter & Rescue workers, Police Officers, and Military service men & women. Period. Operating a mode of public transportation is no more an act of selfless public service than serving up a hamburger from a drive thru, and I don't hear the people at McDonalds or Wendy’s screaming for pensions. So for them to be bitching about pensions that are over 50% funded is just surreal to me and I'm sure it's surreal to the vast majority of people. If that's all they want then fuck it, give them a few more percentage points to their pension and be done with it. Offer them guaranteed cost of living raises for the next billion years, that’s it, and be fuckin done with it. But that's not all they want. They turned down one of the best offers in the country…during a fucking recession! When you operate one of the shittiest and most over priced transit systems in the country and then simultaneously balk at one of the best contracts in the country....what is the public supposed to think? Are we supposed to be supportive? Is that some sort of joke?

http://www.philly.com/inquirer/world_us/20091106_H...

2009-11-06T18:03:26.082-05:00

http://www.philly.com/inquirer/world_us/20091106_How_the_pension_fund_figures_in_SEPTA_strike.html

The Inquirer disagrees with your figure of 90% for the management pension. They're saying 65% management, 53% union. They also have a quote from Septa stating that there is no danger of them missing a payment, and that the pension will be fully funded. Also, if you look at the historic data for the two funds, you'll notice they tend to rise and fall by the same amount, implying that this is, in fact, cause by economic trends.

Joanna P - my biggest gripe about the strike (whic...

2009-11-06T17:43:32.323-05:00

Joanna P - my biggest gripe about the strike (which, luckily, doesn't really effect me) is the lack of journalistic integrity. there's no real digging into what's going on here. if the public knew more of what was going on, myself included, i think this strike would be a tad easier on everyone and maybe everyone wouldn't be so batshit crazy. i think everyone inconvenienced and not inconvenienced has a right to be angry and pissed off, but people have to understand what's going on.

i'd love for PW, CP, Inky, DN, KYW, WHYY, TV news to get in on explaining things instead of being idiots about it. the local media seems to have decided that the strike is bad and that's that so that's what we're reading/watching/seeing in the news. i hope this post helps change that.

I get the distinction between SEPTA and TWU234. I ...

2009-11-06T17:36:45.195-05:00

I get the distinction between SEPTA and TWU234. I get that the union leadership was authorized to call a strike, after a previously less-reasonable offer last week. I get all that.

I'm still pissed at how this is going down, though. Either the union leadership is turning down a reasonable deal in this recession, but I hear your argument in favor of their long-term focus on fair pension funding. OR, they're doing a crap job of publicizing why this strike is happening.

One of my acquaintances also claims there's race/sex discrimination at issue, not letting some operators choose the machinery they can operate. Why don't we hear about that? I'm just pissed something about this strike isn't working right.

SEPTA had failed me by abuisng it's workers to...

2009-11-06T17:32:15.890-05:00

SEPTA had failed me by abuisng it's workers to the point where they felt they needed to strike. They are not getting paid during this strike! It is a desperate measure to try to negotiate with the tyrant, SEPTA Mgmt.

Brandon - I'm a NY transplant so I don't k...

2009-11-06T17:06:17.931-05:00

Brandon - I'm a NY transplant so I don't know and haven't experienced the strikes of TWU234 past other than 2005. But I believe the strikes coincide with the expiration of the contracts, right? The TWU234 only has 3-4, and in 2005, 5-year commitments from management. Granted, they probably want to re-evaluate things after a time as well. But what they have to look out for is themselves in the long run with their pension. And that's what they're doing, isn't it?

Agreed, unions have devolved into a shadow of what they were intended to be. They fought corruption, unfair pay and unfair working conditions for decades. Now they're fighting a different battle. And if this is the Brandon that I know from blogging, you know as well as I do that what we're left with here is a not so hot choice between two parties. So pick a prick or hoof it.

The idea of having unions to protect workers is a...

2009-11-06T17:00:43.115-05:00

The idea of having unions to protect workers is a great one. I don't think you'll find anyone that could disagree with that, aside from some employers. But the greed and corruption that is displayed by just about every union in this modern day does no justice to the great ideal that once stood. Unions have become as unfair, corrupt, and greedy as the entities and governments they "stand up" against. Who am I supposed to support? The prick over in this corner? Or the prick over in that corner? Either way I'm getting fucked.

"Sure that's great for the short term. But that's a horribly near-sighted view to take. A typically American near-sighted view at that."

You expect me to believe that load of shit? The union seemingly strikes every 3-5 years. Short terms view? That's exactly the view I'm looking at because there is no long term view because there is no long term TRUST & COMMITMENT!

agreed. so if management adds proper pension fundi...

2009-11-06T16:31:02.488-05:00

agreed. so if management adds proper pension funding, the public ends up happy. so.....

it may not be what the strike is strictly about, b...

2009-11-06T16:22:03.750-05:00

it may not be what the strike is strictly about, but he is saying at that point that pension funding AND pay increases are what it will take to end the strike. so, we can't leave that fact out of the discussion.

yep, but it's not the main issue. the main iss...

2009-11-06T15:58:28.890-05:00

yep, but it's not the main issue. the main issue is pensions and, from what i can see, that's why they left the deal on the table before walking out.

2:37 in the second video he talks about wage incre...

2009-11-06T15:53:45.638-05:00

2:37 in the second video he talks about wage increases.

addie - that's part of the problem. the union ...

2009-11-06T15:51:47.427-05:00

addie - that's part of the problem. the union doesn't get to see what SEPTA takes in, but it is a fact that SEPTA has more than before. the strike isn't about pay increases - it's about pensions. an underfunded pension at that. SEPTA hasn't said otherwise from what i can see.

i also want to add that i am not pro-septa, either...

2009-11-06T15:51:09.035-05:00

i also want to add that i am not pro-septa, either. i think septa is a terribly run company, and if the strike was only hurting their bottom line, i'd be all for it. but the people it's hurting are the citizens, not the upper management of septa.

and regarding this: "How much would it take for you to walk out on your job right now in this economy?" it's not really a valid question for anyone that's not in a union. BUT, i am currently trying to negotiate better pay for myself because i am basically doing the work of a person with a master's in library science, and getting paid less than a shelver. but i am still at my desk in the meantime.